Curse

Renegade ++RIP++ · Feb 27, 2006, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Vaga,

if you can't see outside of your bubblerange as the mobs do then that is a valid tactic, even IQ will know that. It is however because of our infinite radarrange that we can go, attack and find that non warrior... On top of that mobs also don't communicate so take out ventrillo, teamchat or even typing chat during pvp and you'll have the same limitations as the mobs. Seeing as i don't see the mobs breaking of that tank as soon as one mob that got past a crappy bodyblock notices that weak ele or monk as it is in pvp. So I can't call that ai - abusal either. People wouldn't do it as easilly either...

Like I said, try a couple matches without using or even looking at the radarcompass. Since that is exactly how the mobs are working. Give them infinite aggrorange and tanking will hardly work. You'll only have bodyblocking in tight passages that would/could work.

Symbol, maybe they didn't, but I do remember them complaining about the lack of similarities between the way the enemy (mobs) act in pve and the enemies (people) act in pvp. On which anet then came out with the AI-rebalance to make it more closely resemble pvp.

And even if grneths balance was bugged, it still got taken care off because of abuse in pvp. And then they blame pve for AI-abusal...

dargon · Feb 27, 2006, 01:27 PM // 13:27

PVP players most certainly did nOT call for the AI change. We PVP, we don't really care all that much about what the mobs do in PVE. ANet on the other hand, cares about both and when they saw that mobs simply stood in the pouring firestorm and died they realized that they should be just a little bit smarter about AoE and try to move out of it.

frojack · Feb 27, 2006, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Some very interesting ideas Mercury

. Hopefully Anet are thinking along similar lines.

Ensign. You seem to have a lot of knowledge about the game. So how you might believe that the Ether renewal nerf did not affect pve is a little hard to swallow. I'm sure your aware of how costly it is to maintain enchantments over a long period. I'm also sure your aware of how easy it is to remove them as well. Yeah you could cover your enchantments with something spammable like Reversal of Fortune, but that is in no way any real protection (Rend enchantments? Dangerous but still useful no?). Plus the more enchantments you use, the less attack/support skills you have right? 5 enchantment's may net you high energy gain, but with only 3 attacks skills/spells, you are kinda limited. (Admittedly I have still found ways of using it effectively with an ice build

)

The very fact that the spell is conditional puts it's effectiveness into question. Also interruptions and knockdowns can also remove the benefits of an Ether renewal build. Though I do agree, the spell did make Elementalists' very strong, and yes possibly required a look at (Rangers and mesmers could still own your ele easy), but the nerf was just really silly.

Still, this is all beside the point. You wanted to know of a change that was made for pvp that affected pve. I gave you one.

Mysterial · Feb 27, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

It received buff after buff untill it got nerfed by the batt because of pvp concerns concerning guild lord abuse. Even though it was still a crappy but situational usefull skill in pve. Once more its an indication of the effect of pvp on pve, it doesn't matter if before it got buff after buff, in the end it did get a nerf because of pvp concerns. If you don't want to accept that, then so be it... but then stop acting like you know it all.

Actually, Grenth's Balance got "nerfed" (and it was really more a bugfix) solely because of its PvE abuse. It allowed you to destroy most bosses easily. There's only one "boss" in PvP that anyone cares about, the Guild Lord, and even then mostly only gank teams took it. The skill was barely used in PvP before and is barely used now simply because you usually don't want to be at low enough health for it to be effective.

Quote:

The very fact that the spell is conditional puts it's effectiveness into question. Also interruptions and knockdowns can also remove the benefits of an Ether renewal build. Though I do agree, the spell did make Elementalists' very strong, and yes possibly required a look at (Rangers and mesmers could still own your ele easy), but the nerf was just really silly.

The nerf wasn't silly; I'm sure you can search for the thread where people calculated out just exactly how insane the energy output of the spell was. Even now it's an Elementalist soloing engine for PvE, just not that useful in PvP anymore. The problem with Ether Renewal is that the spell is fundamentally broken, both because it is unbounded and because it is better used with secondaries that have reusable 1/4 cast spells, but Arenanet apparently didn't want to rework the skill and just nerfed it.

Symbol · Feb 27, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Symbol, maybe they didn't, but I do remember them complaining about the lack of similarities between the way the enemy (mobs) act in pve and the enemies (people) act in pvp. On which anet then came out with the AI-rebalance to make it more closely resemble pvp.

Who is "they"?

Hardcore PvP players (the people you term "elitists") don't play PvE. Therefore they're hardly going to call for a change to a gametype they don't care about.

This is so obvious I don't know why I'm even bothering to explain it.

frojack · Feb 27, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

The nerf wasn't silly; I'm sure you can search for the thread where people calculated out just exactly how insane the energy output of the spell was. Even now it's an Elementalist soloing engine for PvE, just not that useful in PvP anymore. The problem with Ether Renewal is that the spell is fundamentally broken, both because it is unbounded and because it is better used with secondaries that have reusable 1/4 cast spells, but Arenanet apparently didn't want to rework the skill and just nerfed it.

Don't get me wrong. I agree that a re-working was required. I just think the nerf itself was silly in that it was over the top. like you say. it seems they couldn't be bothered. Still I really can't think of a build that would allow you to get off more that 7-8 spells in the time It was up (With the 20% mod), though my memory may be failing me

. Even if you could hyporthetically find the spells to really abuse the system and get off 10 - 20. What's the point in equipping a useless set of skills for infinite energy? To spam useless skills?

FrogDevourer · Feb 27, 2006, 03:29 PM // 15:29

I wonder where Ensign still finds enough patience to start this PvE/PvP argument over and over. These balance threads are always highjacked and distorted by people whose best arguments are: 'try a couple matches without using or even looking at the radarcompass'. (tell me Renegade was joking, pleaaase!)

So, I won't be dragged into this discussion since it's almost as old as the game itself, but let's get a few points straight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

The Ai monsterupdate was done after the complaints of pvp-people to make pvp and pve more resemble each other.

You're wrong. Re-read the official posts and announcements from ANet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

It received buff after buff untill it got nerfed by the batt because of pvp concerns concerning guild lord abuse.
...
in the end it did get a nerf because of pvp concerns.

Stop spreading bullshit please. Go to the official site and read the update notes. One bug fix, and two buffs:
- Wednesday, July 13: Fixed Grenth's Balance so that it does not decrease the target's health by more than it increases your health.
- Thursday, August 25: Grenth's Balance: Reduced recharge time to 15 seconds
- Thursday, September 29: Grenth's Balance – Decreased recharge to 10 seconds.

Moreover neither Chiron nor Grenth's Balance have ever been serious PvE skills (barring the bug exploit, that is). Even crappy attempts to use it (Glint) are totally unneeded to butcher poor harmless beasts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

Doesn't matter if it was an important skill or not. It still got nerfed for pvp reasons.

Yes it does. You're whining on obscure PvE skills able to break the whole PvP environment, and you're happy with mindnumbing echo nukers and turtle tanks who spend 90% of their time using the same AI exploits. In short, this statement is precisely the difference between a justified and relevant balance request and the old PvP/PvE argument described by Ensign.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

It is important that pvp influenced pve. Since that is what we were trying to postulate.

I understand your point. Now try to get mine.

Your statement is irrelevant. Sorry to be blunt but PvE is so easy that it is possible to complete all missions and almost all quests with henchmen and *no skill* in your bar. Seriously. Do you truly believe the feedback provided by PvE players should be the base of the game's balance?

Even worse, the most verbal PvE players do not *want* balance. Once you've completed the game, the only fun left in PvE is farming aka the dreaded 'slot machine addiction'. Killing mobs with your spells/weapon is just a requirement. If they could put their hands on an insta-kill AoE spell, many PvE players would be more than eager to exploit it to speed up their farming, or to cheat their way through tough quests and bad PuGs.

Yes, PvE is influenced by PvP. Because without PvP, this game would be almost as balanced as most MMORPGs (read: not at all).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

Not to mention that I'm getting somewhat tired of all your assertions concerning AI abuse...

Rules of thumb for basic aggro control:
- Wait for patrol (AI exploit: patrols always follow the same path),
- Pull (AI exploit: mob are linked in small autistic groups)
- Tank, preferably with gear/book (AI exploit: mobs will attack stupidly and predictably),
- Casters stay out of aggro bubble (AI exploit: mobs cannot see farther than aggro bubble)
- Put monsters in a tight circle around your tank (AI exploit: mobs cannot position themselves correctly)
- Nuke (AI exploit partly fixed: mobs slowly run away from AoE, and they kill themselves stupidly through hexes)
- Rinse an repeat.
- GG.
Sounds familiar? That's your standard AI abuse. Call it PvE strategy if that sounds more epic to your PvE ego. Of course, most of the time mobs are using crappy skills on semi-random targets, so brute force and 'PuG palanoob strategy' is more than you need to complete a mission. Even worse, most of the time, mobs don't have have any healer or resurrection skill, so you can just beat them with time, patience and 'hit & run'. That's why THK and Elona used to be the newbie's nightmare (before their stealthy nerf of doom): because you couldn't count on your resurrects to complete the mission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

how many people would still attack a monk if it took gladiators defense along and some added armorbuffs and how many people don't even bother to bring warriors cunning.

Please don't even try to provide PvP arguments, or made-up PvP scenarios. You're just making a fool of yourself. You have an opinion. Wrong as it may be, you're adamant. Good for you, now please have enough dignity to stop derailing this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

So how you might believe that the Ether renewal nerf did not affect pve is a little hard to swallow.

I was among the first players to request a nerf on the former incarnation of this skill (Feb BWE, after the super-buff) and I have exploited it both in PvE (to breeze through all shiverpeaks/fire island missions and even in SF missions with henchmen) and PvP. It was a good template for PvE (especially for 55 soloing) but hardly better than a basic echo nuker or ss/mm necro because PvE is essentially static. It was an incredible PvP build because you could stack multiple mobile homing nukes. And the PvE and PvP consequences of this nerf are not of the same order of magnitude. You can still use it in PvE (even if it requires more skill) but it's hardly usable in PvP.

Loviatar · Feb 27, 2006, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Renegade ++RIP++

you are new on the forum and i have no idea how long you may have been lurking or playing.

Ensign has a proven track record of being accurate and also a very good player from way before the release.

stop trying to debate him while you are behind and when you are in a hole stop making it deeper

cheers

Renegade ++RIP++ · Feb 27, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

lurking and playing since bwe.

besides you only learn from debating with people either more intelligent, more adamant or more knowledgeable then you.

But as I pointed out in my previous post, that that was the last one i would make unrelated to the topic at hand seeing as I said my piece. Although I still disagree with some statements, but like I said before, I would only take these to pm.

EDIT:

although to mercuries post I would like to add this:

skull crack:

10 adrenaline, applies dazed to person hit with it, remains elite.

Incendiary Arrow:

10 energy, 2 cast, 24 recharge

same as now, only applicated length is 12-16 secs in stead of 8 secs.

Symbol · Feb 27, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

We don't need more of that argument from authority crap here, thanks. Ensign is perfectly capable of debating something on it's merits (or lack thereof). When someone is wrong, you should be able to show that they're wrong, as in this case.

moriz · Feb 27, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

increasing the duration of incendiary arrows will make it a bit too powerful. a better idea is to make its recharge faster. maybe to 18 seconds instead of 24. a preparation that both interrupts everytime and sets stuff on fire should be limited to a short recharge, imo.

Renegade ++RIP++ · Feb 27, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Might be true Moriz, i just hate the constant reaplication of it and being able to be interrupted while doing so. I always feel as if I'm more applicating it then actually using it effectively.

But seeing that choking gas coupled with mark of rodgort nd practiced stance has nearly the same effect and an extra AOE and can be up contineously, i didn't consider it to be that problematic. Seeing that you can't use practiced stance with it anyway seeing that they are both elites.

PS: while we are busy about practiced stance maybe we could add traps to be added to benefit from this stance?

frojack · Feb 27, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

I was among the first players to request a nerf on the former incarnation of this skill (Feb BWE, after the super-buff) and I have exploited it both in PvE (to breeze through all shiverpeaks/fire island missions and even in SF missions with henchmen) and PvP. It was a good template for PvE (especially for 55 soloing) but hardly better than a basic echo nuker or ss/mm necro because PvE is essentially static. It was an incredible PvP build because you could stack multiple mobile homing nukes. And the PvE and PvP consequences of this nerf are not of the same order of magnitude. You can still use it in PvE (even if it requires more skill) but it's hardly usable in PvP.

Hey. I can accept that no problem. Much of what you say are things we agree on anyway so let's leave it at that

.

fallot · Feb 27, 2006, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Nerfing IWAY will accomplish nothing. The strength of that build doesnt come from the skill itself. What I want to see changed are Crippling Shot, Blackout, Gale and maybe Distortion.

Whatever ANet does, it shouldnt take away the usefulness of these skills. They shouldnt become underpowered just because they are being overused right now. Buffing the other skills is the way to go.

Desbreko · Feb 27, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Yep, they were master AI exploiters. Round everything up on the gear tank, then bombard monsters with some of the most horrendous garbage ever made until they died, it didn't matter because monsters tanked the whole thing. Then monster AI abuse gets fixed and people start to realize just how terrible elementalist skills really are.

Funny how a skill can go from uber to garbage solely upon how a monster will (predictably) respond to it, eh?

Indeed. I remember running with a gear tank in SF, especially, it was stupidly easy to get a dozen or more baddies in your AoEs for their complete durations. You could just sit back, unload your spells without fear of being attacked, and have some popcorn while you watched things burn.

I never did have the idea that eles were particularly good damage dealers in PvP, though. Not having played mine in PvP at all, I didn't have any personal experience, but I recognized that the AoE spells would suck against real people. (That's actually the reason I never took my ele into PvP.) I did think that maybe air would still be able to deal some decent damage but your nuking thread kind of threw that thought out the window, heh.

But had eles been buffed to be useful in PvP it would've broken them even more in PvE. After the update, such is not the case anymore, so bring on the buffs.

And, on a related note, I'd love to see PvE mobs running Protective Spirit and the like to counter big, one-shot nukes. Make it actually take some thought and coordination to play a nuker.

Loviatar · Feb 27, 2006, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

Whatever ANet does, it shouldnt take away the usefulness of these skills. They shouldnt become underpowered just because they are being overused right now. Buffing the other skills is the way to go.

it is possible that you consider usefull(essential maybe) might be honestly over powered.

and there is a reason something is *OVERUSED* it is overpowered or some others need to be made competitive with it.

the decision equals either nerf or buff for others.

i perfer buffs to be honest.

side note

imagine the howl if/when they fix the enemy AI so they follow you around that corner instead of trying to shoot through it while you laugh at them?

yesitsrob · Feb 27, 2006, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Wow it's hard to decide if this thread is just downright comical or painful to read.

Arguing with Ensign is stupid, because you will in fact be wrong, don't waste your time - look at his previous contributions to the forum, watch him play the game, and just listen instead, you'll do a lot better that way.

Wasn't the only way in which Grenth's Balance was hurt the Guild lords self-healing ability? So you could no longer destroy him in about 5 seconds?

On the update I'd like to see the negative exhaustion fixed, and maybe also increase the cost of gale.

Everyone and their mother runs distortion because it's such a superb skill even at 4 illusion - probably increase the required attribute value for the -2

Crippling Shot - Too spammable how it is

Orders and Party - reduced to bubble range

and I strongly agree with doing something about res signet - res with less health, slight bit more energy - and maybe do something about the recharging of sigs on the ghost - I think the fact that killing your own ghost early is a good strategy is bullshit, and for teams that run about 7 res sigs - potentially having 14 sigs is ridiculous - that's obviously ha related.

Jetdoc · Feb 27, 2006, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

Sorry to be blunt but PvE is so easy that it is possible to complete all missions and almost all quests with henchmen and *no skill* in your bar. Seriously. Do you truly believe the feedback provided by PvE players should be the base of the game's balance?

No, but the feedback provided by PvP players shouldn't be considered in a vacuum as well, without considering the impact to PvE.

What you say above about the "ease" of PvE is true, except for those of us who enjoy "plodding" through PvE solo, without henchmen. Skill changes in PvP can drastically impact those that utilize those same skills in PvE. As such, PvE players' opinions HAVE to be considered when deciding changes to skills/balance.

SirErnieMacGloop · Feb 27, 2006, 07:47 PM // 19:47

I'm a nobody r3... (not by Iway)

Isn't PvP about teamwork and group/build forming?
Doesn't Iway promote the opposite?

If anything gets nerfed/buffed ANet needs to fix that.

Dsiclaimer: My statements were made by a raving lunatic, who has no idea what he is talking about, please disregard them.

Tainek · Feb 27, 2006, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

it is possible that you consider usefull(essential maybe) might be honestly over powered.

and there is a reason something is *OVERUSED* it is overpowered or some others need to be made competitive with it.

the decision equals either nerf or buff for others.

i perfer buffs to be honest.

side note

imagine the howl if/when they fix the enemy AI so they follow you around that corner instead of trying to shoot through it while you laugh at them?

Prehaps the Reason it is "Overused" (and i use that liberally) is because its simple and effective, mr joe everybody doesnt want to spend hours working on a group build to even have a chance.

i say leave them as they are, because Mr Joe Everybody is Most players, and at the end of the day, its these guys who pay for the game en masse, and keep us with a server

anet isnt stupid, it wont bite the hand that feeds it, no matter how much the pros moan about it

for example, i think IWAY is one of the best things to hit the PVP scene, there is still plenty of different builds out there, and there is also plenty of competition around

Iway requires skill to work well, just like every other build going- i think the pro's are just sore because now people with only a few hours a week (but with talent) can join in and WIN, as opposed to having theyre asses handed to them by some teen (disclaimer i am 17 myself) with Way to much time and no social life (read, i am not suggesting all pro's are this) . Average joe has no fun, leaves, doesnt buy expansions, = Much Less Income for Anet,= GW's life Shortening Significantly, GG